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Author Topic: False Neutrals  (Read 789 times)

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lee7

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False Neutrals
« on: December 23, 2020, 03:29:07 PM »

Hey guys, hope yall are enjoyin the Holidays!

So my season finale was quite exciting and maybe not in the best way. I hit a false neutral going into the kink at CMP and shortly found myself in the grass moments later. Luckily I was able to walk away with very minor injuries.

The biggest issue I've always had with my R6 are these false neutrals, I've had them ever since I've been on the track and even with an autoblipper, I still continue to have them. Zee helped me out towards the end of the season when he overheard me talking about this issue in the paddock. Upon inspection of my gear shifter assembly, he told me that my washers were incorrect and so I got the OEM stuff which made a HUGE difference in regards to my false neutrals. I went from having a false neutral nearly every session to maybe having one throughout the course of the day, but the problem never truly went away.

My question is, what else can I check? Is there anything I can swap out (like the shift star) to something non OEM to help reduce the chance of a false neutral? Or is this a me issue, am I lazy on the shifter and not completing the shift?

Here is my false neutral crash: https://youtu.be/TiCmGAj1pIU

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LC
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Taylor 22

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Re: False Neutrals
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2020, 04:14:52 PM »

I’ve experienced this as well, for a bunch of reasons.. but mostly because my left ankle is 50/50 and that’s on a good day.  reconstructive surgery is a bit pricey so what I did was adjust the shift lever just a little bit and it made a lot of difference on making a solid shift. there are a few corners on the tracks that we ride that I have to stay conscious to it to ensure a solid shift.. but I still find a few false neutrals...😑🤔😁🏍.  I don’t run the q/s or blipper.
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Taylor Wells
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lee7

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Re: False Neutrals
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2020, 07:11:58 PM »

I hear ya Taylor! I've tried adjusting the lever many times, I've got it as high as it can go (so it's easier to shift up since my foot rests much higher than the lever) without interfering with my up shifts. Maybe this is a problem for the R6? It does seem to be pretty consistent as to where it happens, and I tend to focus on downshifting much more deliberately and give it a bit more time between downshifts in hard braking areas. I'll def have to focus on downshifting alot more carefully, and plan where I take downshifts a bit better (like never again before the kink lol).

Haha Craig, I love having the manual transmission, I just need it to work right and not be dropping gears! But yesss that is really cool and I've seen air shifters on drag bikes that could do the same thing with a push of a button
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 07:20:46 PM by lee7 »
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LC
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RocketDan

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False Neutrals
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2020, 04:36:33 AM »

Lee, explain a little more about when the false neutrals happen. In downshifts, or up shifts? Does it seem like it take the gear and then comes out, or does it not take the gear when shifting? Does it consistently do this in one gear or will it happen in any gear? This is your 2nd R6 motor right? Same thing happened with both motors? What rear sets are you using?


Daniel Hughes
2015 R1
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 02:39:59 PM by RocketDan »
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JustAnotherSquid

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Re: False Neutrals
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2020, 05:25:04 AM »

Here is my false neutral crash: https://youtu.be/TiCmGAj1pIU

Ouch!  That sucks.  Glad you're ok.   :tiphat:

(Sorry, can't help with the false neutrals.  My mechanical specialties are limited to stripping bolts and snapping brackets.)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 08:04:12 AM by JustAnotherSquid »
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plain1984

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Re: False Neutrals
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2020, 07:43:29 AM »

Hi Lee:  It seems from your previous posts and the video you posted that you were indeed downshifting and that you have an autoblipper.  You also mentioned that you have made many adjustments to the lever position and I assume from this that your linkage is setup correctly with 90 degree (or thereabout) angles and that the joints are well lubricated.  Are there sensitivity and timing adjustments in your autoblipper software? 

I have a ZX6R and have had issues with false neutrals on upshifts after I installed a Bazzaz QS.  Adjustments to the QS timing in certain gears was of some benefit.  After I still had intermittent issues with false neutrals, brother Dan suggested I back off just a fraction and take a closer look at what I was doing during the upshifts.  I recall him mentioning that sometimes the nut between the seat and the bars can get a little loose and fail to make exact and timely shifts with the QS system.  Not saying this is happening in your situation but when I made a conscious effort in this regard I found that when I was hitting false neutrals my shifts were rushed and sloppy.

In my case with the upshifts I thought initially that I must have had a tweaked shift fork or some such mechanical malady.  Adjusting QS timing helped, but that may have been because the change increased my focus on what I was doing.  After the discussion with Dan, and really focusing on what I was doing with my left foot, my false neutrals have almost been eliminated.  On the rare occasions when I do hit a false neutral I usually have been getting sloppy with my shifts.  When I test consciously I can never replicate the failure.

Hope all else is well with you and best holiday wishes for you and your family, John.

 
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lee7

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Re: False Neutrals
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2020, 03:49:00 PM »

Lee, explain a little more about when the false neutrals happen. In downshifts, or up shifts? Does it seem like it take the gear and then comes out, or does it not take the gear when shifting? Does it consistently do this in one gear or will it happen in any gear? This is your 2nd R6 motor right? Same thing happened with both motors? What rear sets are you using?


Daniel Hughes
2015 R1

Hey Dan, so the issue only happens on downshifts, I've never once had an issue shifting up.

I have all these issues, sometimes the gear will engage, then momentarily lower power and re-engage (like at my crash at cmp). Some times, the gear will engage but then the bike will just jump a gear (example https://youtu.be/1s5Dvt2BjxE  @ 7:08 I shifted to 2nd the gear engaged but then it just jumps to 3rd). And finally the 3rd issue, it will be in a false neutral soon as I attempt to shift (example https://youtu.be/IQFKpX1q7s8 @ 9:13 just totally falls off until I pull in the clutch and shift again).

I'd say it happens all over, but most frequently from 3rd to 2nd gear, but at cmp it was 5-4 and same thing with the road ATL clip.

Yes same issue on both motors (I messed up my transmission at road ATL trying to recover it from a false neutral going into 10a) and having a QS/Autoblip has made no difference I think since I was having this issue before. Im gona try doing a day or two without them on and see if the issue happens just to be sure.

One constant is my rear sets, which are vortex. I was talking to Chance and he recommend I try a different brand which I will certainly do in the spring just to rule that out. I also spoke to Zach and he suggested to check the my clutch cable adjustment to make sure it has slack and not engaged all the time so Ill be sure to do that as well.

I'm starting to think the issue is me, just like you said John. If I'm really thinking about my downshifts (like right after one happens), the false neutrals dont ever happen. Ive spoken to many other R6 owners and the majority of them don't have this problem. Any time I'm pushing my braking into a corner and am super focused on braking and corner entry, I think Im fudging up the shift, so Ill have to be super conscientious of that next season and see if Im still having this issue.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 03:51:54 PM by lee7 »
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LC
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lee7

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Re: False Neutrals
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2020, 03:50:59 PM »

Ouch!  That sucks.  Glad you're ok.   :tiphat:

(Sorry, can't help with the false neutrals.  My mechanical specialties are limited to stripping bolts and snapping brackets.)

Thank you! Def coulda ended a lot worse for myself and the bike but we came out allright  :thumbup:
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LC
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2018 Street Triple RS

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend.

lee7

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Re: False Neutrals
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2020, 03:59:12 PM »

Hi Lee:  It seems from your previous posts and the video you posted that you were indeed downshifting and that you have an autoblipper.  You also mentioned that you have made many adjustments to the lever position and I assume from this that your linkage is setup correctly with 90 degree (or thereabout) angles and that the joints are well lubricated.  Are there sensitivity and timing adjustments in your autoblipper software? 

I have a ZX6R and have had issues with false neutrals on upshifts after I installed a Bazzaz QS.  Adjustments to the QS timing in certain gears was of some benefit.  After I still had intermittent issues with false neutrals, brother Dan suggested I back off just a fraction and take a closer look at what I was doing during the upshifts.  I recall him mentioning that sometimes the nut between the seat and the bars can get a little loose and fail to make exact and timely shifts with the QS system.  Not saying this is happening in your situation but when I made a conscious effort in this regard I found that when I was hitting false neutrals my shifts were rushed and sloppy.

In my case with the upshifts I thought initially that I must have had a tweaked shift fork or some such mechanical malady.  Adjusting QS timing helped, but that may have been because the change increased my focus on what I was doing.  After the discussion with Dan, and really focusing on what I was doing with my left foot, my false neutrals have almost been eliminated.  On the rare occasions when I do hit a false neutral I usually have been getting sloppy with my shifts.  When I test consciously I can never replicate the failure.

Hope all else is well with you and best holiday wishes for you and your family, John.

 

Hi John, I had my QS/AB setup by SBU on a dyno. To be honest, the settings they gave me were so good I never felt like I needed an adjustment, so long as I didnt hit a false neutral, the rev matching was always spot on. I've also never had an issue with an upshift, it's only been on downshifts. The position is good, 90 degrees at both the spline and lever linkage. The setup was brand new this season, and I make sure it's lubricated and moving freely as it should. I did have a big issue with the washers I was using, I was able to fix that by replacing whatever was on the bike with the OEM stuff and that made a huge difference in regards to reducing my false neutrals.

I'm starting to feel the same way as you, I think Im running into this issue when ever I feel pressured (going into a turn hot) and Im not doing a clean shift with my foot. In the occasions that I do get one, Im really focused on it for the rest of the session and thus it doesn't happen.

Believe me, this will be firmly on my mind as I ride on the track next season  :D

Thank you, hope you and your family are enjoying the holidays as well!

« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 04:11:35 PM by lee7 »
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LC
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Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend.

RocketDan

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Re: False Neutrals
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2020, 05:37:52 PM »

Lee, one constant I see in all three videos is you are turning right in a breaking zone. I assume you are GP shift, so this would put your foot in the most difficult position for pulling up on the lever since your bum is is on the right side of the bike. I say that because it would be easy for you to not be fully engaging the shift lever in this position, which could cause these issues.

I actually had a similar issue, but with uplifts since I am standard shift. I found I had to be very deliberate with my shifts when my body was on the right side of the bike. I was able to improve the situation with a new set of rear sets. The new rear sets gave me a better range of adjustment and less play in the lever that made it easier for me to get a solid engagement of the shift lever when I was leaned over to the right.

First thing I would do is make sure your lever is in the appropriate position so you can get a solid shift when leaned off the bike. Also make sure the shift action is free and nothing is binding anywhere.


Daniel Hughes
2015 R1
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JRA

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Re: False Neutrals
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2020, 07:57:29 AM »

This is the reason I've never switched my shift pattern. Pretty much everything we do is some sort of a compromise, and one of the many I have made is trying to make shifting down easier even if it comes at the expense of making shifting up (in some situations) a bit harder.

I look at it like this, not messing up shifting down is a more important to me. Down shifts are part of my braking and screwing that up can have a bad outcome. By pushing down on the shift lever I can down shift from any position on the bike and I never even have to think about it.

Not being able to click an up shift at the exact second i want to it isn't going to cause me to crash. I don't have to worry about which shift pattern is going to give me that extra half of a second on lap time, because I don't care enough about that for it to be a consideration. Again, it's a trade off, and one that I like. I can think of a couple of places where shifting up while leaned over is a little harder because of the pattern I use, but I can also think of a couple of places where shifting down while leaned over is a lot easier for me. I've ridden both ways but overall I really prefer standard.

You might not ever know the solution to this without trying the other pattern and seeing if that makes a difference. Don't try to convince yourself that you are so used to GP that you can't switch. It'll take about one session to relearn. This is how you figure things out in this sport, Be willing to try different things to determine what works best for you. If using the standard shift patterns eliminates false neutrals you might actually end up being faster because this concern over your shifting will be eliminated too. And, even if you aren't faster maybe it will be a safer way for you to ride.
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JustAnotherSquid

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Re: False Neutrals
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2020, 11:59:12 AM »

JRA, I'd been debating switching my new (old) bike back to standard shift and you just convinced me.  It's definitely easier (in general) to recover from botched upshifts than botched downshifts, and I definitely don't need to shave tenths off my lap times. 

Seconds or minutes maybe, but not tenths.   :thumbup:
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lee7

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Re: False Neutrals
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2020, 06:17:21 PM »

This is the reason I've never switched my shift pattern. Pretty much everything we do is some sort of a compromise, and one of the many I have made is trying to make shifting down easier even if it comes at the expense of making shifting up (in some situations) a bit harder.

I look at it like this, not messing up shifting down is a more important to me. Down shifts are part of my braking and screwing that up can have a bad outcome. By pushing down on the shift lever I can down shift from any position on the bike and I never even have to think about it.

Not being able to click an up shift at the exact second i want to it isn't going to cause me to crash. I don't have to worry about which shift pattern is going to give me that extra half of a second on lap time, because I don't care enough about that for it to be a consideration. Again, it's a trade off, and one that I like. I can think of a couple of places where shifting up while leaned over is a little harder because of the pattern I use, but I can also think of a couple of places where shifting down while leaned over is a lot easier for me. I've ridden both ways but overall I really prefer standard.

You might not ever know the solution to this without trying the other pattern and seeing if that makes a difference. Don't try to convince yourself that you are so used to GP that you can't switch. It'll take about one session to relearn. This is how you figure things out in this sport, Be willing to try different things to determine what works best for you. If using the standard shift patterns eliminates false neutrals you might actually end up being faster because this concern over your shifting will be eliminated too. And, even if you aren't faster maybe it will be a safer way for you to ride.

Everything you said is so true, I really dont gain a whole lot with GP shift, and it would be no issues for me to switch back. My goal is always to be as safe as possible and I am willing to switch back to standard shift if that means I am less likely to get a false neutral on a downshift. This has been my biggest headache and I'm ready to do anything to fix it, if it's something as simple as using standard shift, then I'm all for it.

I will start this season using std shift and see if that resolves my issue. Thank you for the suggestion and information John, really does make a lot of sense.
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LC
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Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend.

lee7

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Re: False Neutrals
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2020, 06:23:27 PM »

Lee, one constant I see in all three videos is you are turning right in a breaking zone. I assume you are GP shift, so this would put your foot in the most difficult position for pulling up on the lever since your bum is is on the right side of the bike. I say that because it would be easy for you to not be fully engaging the shift lever in this position, which could cause these issues.

I actually had a similar issue, but with uplifts since I am standard shift. I found I had to be very deliberate with my shifts when my body was on the right side of the bike. I was able to improve the situation with a new set of rear sets. The new rear sets gave me a better range of adjustment and less play in the lever that made it easier for me to get a solid engagement of the shift lever when I was leaned over to the right.

First thing I would do is make sure your lever is in the appropriate position so you can get a solid shift when leaned off the bike. Also make sure the shift action is free and nothing is binding anywhere.


Daniel Hughes
2015 R1

Yes I think the major issue is that I'm not completing the full range of motion when I'm not in the ideal position for my foot/lever. After John's comment, Im gona switch back to std shift and see if Im having issues with upshifts, in which case that would confirm that the issue is me.
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LC
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Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend.
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